Notes from a conversation between Derek Sivers and Andrew Wilkinson

I heard this podcast. And like most times when I come across something interesting or inspiring, I write into people!

So I wrote to Derek.
And here is a part of that email.
Paraphrased for a blog post.

Derek’s honest talk made me reflect on my own life and at 42 (am at that age where I ought to have all the answers :D). Here are some things that I thought about

1/ Explorer vs Leader.

Derek says he’s an explorer. I think I am the same. An explorer at best. While at work, I am supposed to lead a team per se, I have lately realised that I am probably a modern-day hippie who’s supposed to explore. And as Derek mentioned, I need a Queen / King to allocate resources and a leader to go in one direction and do things.

So I am on constant lookup for people that can enable me and support me. I am lucky that I have some folks that have chosen me.

2/ Life optimised for personal growth (and not for status).

I won’t lie – I’ve thought about chasing status but the more I age, the more I realise that I am not very keen on status games. I am also inspired by Naval and his thoughts on status games. On Naval, he also talks about long-term games with long-term people and I recently read one of Derek’s essays about super long-term thinking.

I’ve always explored with the intention of doing the next thing and the underlying intention has always been growth. And personal joy.

I also tend to stay away from folks that are invested into status games.

3/ I am a Xenophile too.

Before I saw Derek’s website, I did not know I was one!

I mean I come from a place like India where we have a million subcultures and yet I pine for foreign lands. I am lucky that I’ve travelled to a few places.

Oh, Derek also talked about the stubborn visionary that built Dubai. This is my phrase of the week, till I find the next one to latch onto.

4/ Optimal level of fame.

You know, the more I think about life and what I want from it, I really want to have access to people, places and things that seem interesting to me. These could be the poorest of neighbourhoods and fanciest of hotels. This could mean an internet billionaire on one side and a lumber worker on the other. This could mean a ticket to ride to Mars or entry into a private forest in some hills.

I would love to have just that level of fame that gets me access to these places. I don’t know what I would do with this access. This also connects beautifully with being an explorer, accepting beliefs that are useful to you (rather than them being universally true) and of course, personal growth!

5/ Questioning your biases and beliefs

Derek talked about some of his. And I am inspired to change some of mine. Starting with the one that I’ve help for a long long time – that I don’t goto people’s homes. And I will change.

Thing is, for some reason, I’ve never been comfortable intruding on people’s personal space. Maybe it’s my reflection of my own space that I like to not share. May be its the manifestation of me never having a good home. I remember this idea became much more stronger during the lockdown when I lived in an absolutely bare shell space. And thus, I always meet people outside (at cafes, restaurants etc). Going forward, I will try to go to their homes and know their stories.

6/ What I really want from life?

Lemme break this into parts.

A – While answers may not be easy about what I want in life, I keep coming back to this one quote from a poet, Kabir.

Sai itna dijiye, jaame kutumb samaay,
main bhookha naa rahoon, sadhu na bhookha jaaye

This translates loosely into, “Oh, Lord, give me enough to take care of my family. Enough that I don’t sleep hungry and yet have enough left to support others that may ask me for it.”

The point is, I want to make enough to take care of myself, my family, my people and the one I feel responsible for. If you want to go down more rabbit holes, you may want to read these three posts.

B – I am gonna think about some hard-nos for me.
One of those is that I want to control my time and I will not rent it out. So far I have been fairly successful at that.

C – Where I live.
Right now I live in a concrete jungle full of pollution etc. I really want to move to a better place – ideally to a place in the lap of nature that is cold. But I need modern conveniences and I may not get to live there.

D – Connect People.
I will invest my time and energy into becoming a people connector. I do this already but I will amp this up. To a point, that this becomes my identity. I am yet to get clarity on this but I will find it for sure.

I also want to invest in communities. Not in terms of giving back, but in terms of the tribe of people that you want to be with. I want a lot of folks around me and I will build those networks.

7/ In the end

From the podcast, this quote Andrew caught my eye / ear- “treasure you seek is in the cave you are afraid and reluctant to enter”

This is what the theme for the rest of 2024 would be. That I need to act on things that I am afraid of doing.

Let’s see how that goes for me.

That’s about it.

As always, please poke holes in my thinking!

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Freedom!

A manifesto of sorts about how I want to live my life.

Do me a favour. Listen to this song while you read this.

From this one, I love these lines…

On bended knee is no way to be free

I would have heard this song a million times if not more. And each time I hear it, the emotions it evokes are the same. That of a life lived on my terms, spent chasing things that I want (and not others), of being free. 

The song talks about something very very fundamental to us humans. The want to be free. The need. Not in a mythical manner that gets romanticised where you say you control your time outside of your office hours. But in the real sense of the word. Where you are the master of time, the driver of your destiny and the only one who makes decisions for you on a day-to-day basis. 

No, I am not saying that we become hippies and start roaming around free without an agenda or a mission. I dont want us to start running wild and amok and go back to the days of jungles and caves. I am not implying that we quit everything and wait on patrons to provide for us. Let’s park this thought as A. We’d come back to this. 

So, Naval says that you are free when you are not a slave to your calendar.

I love that idea.

Of course, we all have calendars and deadlines and meetings and tasks and all that. But having all of it without being a slave. You are free when you control a “large part” of what you want to do, who you want to do it with and how you want to do it. This “large part” is where the spectrum could be. For Naval, it is 100%. For me, it would be 80%. For someone else, it would be 10%. You need to find what your “large part” is and then aim to get to it. That simple. Like I said, mine is 80%

The thing is, the world is governed by two things and two things only – the fundamental laws of physics and the ego of people. One you can’t control and have to submit to. The other you can manage. And in this management is the freedom. This is the lever you push to see if freedom pops on the other side! 

Lemme talk about C4E for a bit. This avatar of C4E started post-COVID when an old client and a friend from MDI got me started on a couple of projects. Since then, C4E has largely been an experiment. And a good one at that. That has allowed us to grow into a collective of some 15 people, each almost free. At least from my vantage point. While we dont make enough money to live a lavish life, we do have enough to pay our bills (I think so) and yet have a large control over our time. It’s so good that I often think that the bubble would someday burst. I often wonder when would the penny drop. I know it would someday. I know this too shall pass. 

However, the experiment over the last three years has given me the taste of life as a free man. I now know what is independence. And I dont think I would ever want to be chained. 

In fact, looking back, I realise freedom has become one of the most important drivers of my life. Even simple acts of rebellion (not wearing shoes or pants) is a struggle for freedom for me.

I hope most people at C4E are like that – free, not wanting to ever go back to the clutches of a timesheet and trap of a fixed salary. 

Of course, this freedom has come with a certain price – that of working harder than the ones that are not free. This is the first time I’ve brought the W word in this note.

Remember I had parked an A a few paras ago?
Time to revisit that. 

So in the ideal world, most of us would have patrons that allow us to chase our respective bliss. But the world is not ideal. And we dont want to become hippies. So we have to work. And word harder. Hard work is indeed the price of freedom. All of us know about the recent brouhaha around the 70-hours of work per week. I am proud that I clock more than 80 hours a week. I wish I could do more. Laws of physics dont allow me to (old age, you see). No, this is not a norm at C4E. There are people that work “full-time” and yet clock 10 hours a week. And others are probably in between. Of course, these numbers are estimates – we dont have timesheets. 

But the point is, we have earned our freedom by paying for it with our hard work. And with one other thing.

Reliability.

At C4E, we’ve taken vows to ensure that we are reliable. And that is the only promise we make to our clients. We dont claim to be the most creative team. We dont win awards (we may at some point in future but that is not our ambition). We dont pull rabbits out of hats. But we deliver. We’ve designed our work to have redundant structures so that we dont miss deadlines. If we say a thing will happen at 5 PM, it happens at 5 PM. There is no if or but or when or doubt about it. We typically over-communicate and in case we are getting delayed, we will tell you. 

And despite being reliable and working harder, longer, and more rigorous than others, I want to claim that most of us are largely free. While we continue to be a slave to our calendars, like I said, we choose where we are when we work, what kind of work we do, how we work and who we work with. We are a fully remote team, we work on our schedules, at locations of our choosing (am mostly at some Starbucks) and we respect each other’s freedom. And while we do that, we ensure that everyone is paid fairly (at least to the best of our abilities). On top of this, each person is encouraged to build their dream life (not the life that any one person would want to impose upon them). 

Of course, we have clients and deadlines and their business goals and we need to deliver to those clients. And we like to be reliable and available and good. Plus, at our scale, we are unable to say no to a lot of clients but we remain very very choosy. Each time we get an opportunity, we ask ourselves if we’d have to give that client our freedom. 

If the answer is yes, we pull back. 

If the answer is no, we do whatever we can to ensure that they get what they expect. And more. After all, if not for them, how would we survive? And the world we live in, power equations are biased – some people have work that needs to get done and they have multiple options to get their work done. If they choose us, we are grateful about it and we do everything we can to serve them to the best of our ability. And this is where I mentioned, that I am not sure if 100% freedom is possible. 80% is. 

I also think that this service mindset is what has kept us going and has given us freedom. And now that I have tasted it, I really wouldn’t want a life where I am not free. The best part is that we’ve been able to build a village (not a family, not a sports team) where we look after each other, cheer for each other’s success and work to ensure that the village continues to thrive

Oh, one more thing. 
Here’s an invite to the village. 
I want others to taste freedom. 
Do read this post and write to us if this speaks to you. 

Till we speak next,
SG

Further Readings
1/ Naval and Kapil Gupta on Freedom – Link

Thank you to (in no order) Anshika, Krishna, Pradx, Riya, Vivek, Vanita for leaving comments on the first draft.